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All In With Chris Hayes

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Osha 18, Fbi 11, Boston 9, Us 8, Texas 7, Celeste 5, Washington 4, Max Baucus 4, Obama Administration 3, New York 3, Angie 3, Subsection 2, New Zealand 2, Manhattan 2, Chris Hayes 2, Texas City 2, Kellogg 2, Mmm 2, Manchin 2, New York City 2,
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  MSNBC    All In With Chris Hayes    News/Business.  (2013) New.  

    April 18, 2013
    5:00 - 6:00pm PDT  

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our coverage continues now with all in from chris hayes. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. thank you for joining us tonight. three days after the boston marathon was bombs, we have photos, pictures of two men the fbi suspects in monday's attack. the fbi released these photos hours ago asking for the public's help finding or identifying them. the man authorities are identifying as suspect number one is seen in a dark hat. here's suspect number two in a white hat. this suspect, number two in the white hat is the only one authorities believe they have seen on tape planting an
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explosive device. they believe the two men were associated. any who knows anything about either of these men is asked to call 1-800-fbi or call bostonmarathontips.fbi.gov. they said these men may be extremely dangerous and urging everyone not to take action on their own. joining us is pete williams. this is a big development today. what is the latest? >> it is a big development. the pictures don't show crystal clear view of the faces, of course. there's pictures the fbi has not released. they do believe they have images showing the man in the white hat planting the second bomb, the one in the front of the restaurant. by the way, we have seen that picture from our affiliate in boston that shows the garbage bag next to the mailbox. they say that is -- now, they can say that is not the bomb. the bomb was actually planted on
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the other side of that barrier. it's right near there but just on the other side. in the release of these pictures, then, they've chosen which ones they think will be most helpful to people in being able to recognize them. granted, the faces are never crystal clear. they're hoping the totality of the clothes and where they were and what they were doing will cause some people to call in. they are getting the response that they asked for or getting a response, anyway. lots of names, but having names and knowing the right names will take some time. it's way too soon to know whether this will be productive. but they clearly have high hopes for us. >> what was the behind the scenes calculation in deciding whether or not to release these photos? what does that say about, if anything, the status of the investigation? >> well, i think it says the status at this moment is pretty optimistic. what it says is that they could not by themselves, looking at
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these pictures and using the other methods they have trying to crosstab bulate with cell phone calls, you see in the upper white on the screen, the man in the white hat is talking on a cell phone so they're looking at cell phone records. that's only gotten them so far. they concluded they're not able to get over the finish line without public help here. they're hoping people will recognize them. the other thing i should say, they're also hoping, now that they've shown the public what it is they're looking for, they will now get more pictures, people there at the marathon, around the spots where these two bombs were planted, will now go back to their cell phones and cameras and video-recorders and see if they have any pictures of these men and send those to the fbi as well. they're not done asking for pictures. they also sane the coming day, if they get clearer images of these people, they'll release
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those, tao. >> i've already seen an image of the suspect in the white hat making a right on fairfield in the aftermath. that is already circulating. coming through, something we're talking about, in talking to people around the investigation, have they expressed any frustration or misgivings the fact so many other pictures of so many other people were floating around the internet and today in certain media outlets? >> i think they're disappointed it's out there because it doesn't help them any. it's frustrating in the sense they don't want to see innocent people have their pictures out there. there has been a lot of that stuff. i don't know that's interfered with their investigation that much, probably generates tips they have to wade through. they've been more focused on their own pictures and known all along what it is they're looking for. as you note, it's one thing leading to another, getting pictures, showing the man in the
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white hat planting the bomb and showing the two together. >> the pictures released by the fbi are the only photos released right now of any suspected of involvement in monday's bombing of the boston marathon. as i just mentioned, they were not the only pictures floating around being tied to the investigation. the "new york post" for one apparently unable to wait for the actual photos had this one of two young men seen on monday, ominously carrying bags. i should note we blurred out the young men's faces here because you may have noticed these are not the suspects no matter how bad the "post's" headline believes they are. they plastered their pictures distributed by law enforcement among themselves and meanwhile, they have identified two potential suspects captured on surveillance videos taken before the deadly blast.
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the part about officials having identified two suspects turns out to be correct but the two young men were not those suspects. fbi assistant john miller was quick to debunk the photos like the high school kid in the "new york post" showing how this latest journal malfeasance came to be. >> i've seen a couple pictures on the internet and in the paper today. until we hear from authorities, should we discount pictures floating around all over the place? >> those are not pictures that will be released today by authorities. >> just wondering. >> here's what happens. those pictures were on the internet yesterday morning and they started going viral in deficit sites and difference infusion places pick those up, we'll take that information and then it ends up leaking back to the newspaper and comes out in one big circle. >> pictures start on the internet and law enforcement
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officials pass them internally and leak back into the media. the next thing you know a 17-year-old who runs track on high school is in a viral internet presence and law enforcement chatter and onto the cover of the "new york post." to be clear, the impossible poor judgment of the editors of the "new york post" was not the only reason this kid's picture was in the world associated with the bombing. what i saw on the front page of the post was not the first time i've seen this particular picture. the reason i saw it before was because i fell down a rabbit hole at 11:00 and browsing a page in which internet users had come together to do the vigilante work of sifting through the publicly available pictures of the marathon. it struck me sitting in the cold nightlight of my laptop we have so many images of this event everyone was turning over to authorities and that would be
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our salvation. or provisionally was. here i was staring at what the dark underbelly looks like. the images are not only possessed by police but also property of people sharing them and why this kid who was watching twatc watching the marathon had to clear his name with the authorities. it's not lost by the fbi as they try to find the actual perpetrators. the fbi's special agent in charge made a point to address the issue at tonight's news conference as soon as he had released the official photos. >> for clarity, these images should be the only ones, i emphasize the only ones the public should view to assist us. other photos should not divert the public's attention to do vital work for resources. >> those photos are the only
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photos of the men actually suspected of the bombing. what does it mean about privacy of the public and media that scores of other people have been circulating around the internet and gracing the front page of the "new york post" in connection with the boston marathon bombing. joining me, director of progressive security consultants and susan, with intellectual property law information program. dwayne, how common has it become in this day and age for law enforcement to be using digital images or photos captured by security or surveillance cameras submitted by the public? >> it has become very common over the last 10 or 15 years, maybe even 20 years. i've been involved in law enforcement approximately 30 years plus. i've seen it transcend. i'm a huge advocate of video cameras. i'd much rather have the pleasure of having the video camera than the misery of not
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having it. >> you have found it incredib inextricably important in the investigati investigative -- incredibly important in the work you have done, like in a department store in boston for something like that? >> i'm here to tell you, video camera s deter and sometimes prevent crimes. they solve cases. in this particular case, if you look at the video camera, video footage rather released today. sure, you see suspect one and suspect two. but there are other things you want to see as well. there is a young lady walking in front of the suspects with green balloons in her hands. as you remember when that first explosion went off, those green balloons were set off in the air. that's somebody you want to locate, find, other people who see other things. >> talking about the usefulness of this, i absolutely understand why certainly in this case. there also seems to be another side of this, staring in the face the fact that every second we go about our lives we are
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being recorded by something. there is a question about who gets control of that informatio information. >> absolutely. it's very important to think about the fact this is an incredible incursion on privacy and recognize in this crisis we have no ability to protect our own image. the police take the idea if you're going to be in public, that's it. you have no control over -- >> why isn't that a fair idea? look, you go to the boston marathon, you are in a public space. i believe the legal term is expectation of privacy. key legal concept. there is no expectation of privacy when you're standing out in front of a half a million people at the boston marathon. >> there's a big vacuum cleaner out there picking up everything americans are doing not only their images and communications. we seem unable to talk about that. it's very important to recognize these are rights coming into conflict with fear. >> do you think there are rights coming into conflict in this
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case? >> in this case we have video captured of a disaster that allows us to identify a suspect. i'm talking about elevating it to the point you can't have any expectation in any setting, and worth talking about as a country. >> do you go to the local grocery store and say, hey, can i take a look at your surveillance camera or is there an official means to extract it or is it generally just hand it over? >> you can go and request it and some cases have it subpoenaed. you know what, our number one priority should be safety and security and protection of life. put that on a scale versus a privacy issue. to me, that's a no-brainer. you want to save people's life, deter crime and keep people safe out of crime's way. >> there's no part that wonders, in this case, we're dealing with what looks like a best case
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scenario. horrific crime is committed. leads have been generated through this video, right? one can imagine there are all sorts of transgressions cap ttud in those same images. my question is do those images now live officially -- if someone is smoking a joint right by -- i'm serious. if someone is smoking a joint by the finish line of the boston marathon, right, does that image live somewhere for a future conviction? >> right not. no one is going to catch that person who may be using marijuana. that footage will be archived somewhere and never seen again. the purpose of video footage, cctvs, in cases just like this and other cases we have command centers and police departments all across the country these cctvs are being monitored constantly and repeatedly. there was one case the person
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monitoring the cctv was able to relay the police officer via the radio where the suspect was because the suspect put himself in a position as a sniper to shoot the police officer. it works across the board. if having cameras offends someone, my position, you know what, sorry about that. i'd rather have them than not have them. >> extremist groups, let's be clear. extremist groups understand our core appeal around the world is reliance on individual liberties. it's in their interests for us to give those up and our interest to be a shining city on the hill that we have a right of privacy that doesn't exist in this country. >> you say right of privacy doesn't exist. is there a distinction between being in a public place where this is happening and another case someone is reading your e-mail. you're expecting that to be private or text message. being in a public place what we're talking about this kind of
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cctv closed-circuit monitoring, do you think that is an incursion on our privacy? >> there are tens of thousands of cameras in new york city. it is an incursion on our privacy to have no idea where those cam aeras are. >> thank you. susan crawford, stay with us. the best reporter in the world on a very important internet su subculture that first identified that poor kid on the "new york post." he will join us in a second. ♪
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let's bring in adrien chen, from "gawker." is this a forum? >> a forum and millions of people, basically the kind of dominant force in an online culture. >> this is the percentage of daily internet page views of reddit. 67% of every internet page view, way above the huffington post
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and "new york times." this has a larger reach if you haven't heard of it that you have heard of. and a sub-reddit people started going about the business of collating these photos, right? >> a subsection of reddit. any can create a subsection and called "find the boston bombers." a few thousand people posting every kind of lead or photo they can find and pouring over it and trying to find who did it. >> the creator of the boston one, was very clear he did not want to condone vigilante justice. we don't condone vigilante justice and any personal information posted that can identify someone should be deleted. if somebody looks suspicious, it's sent to the fbi. we don't do anything but show
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their movement. the photos didn't just stay there. >> journalists all over read reddit. when this took off, people were paying attention to see what could these guys do because reddit has a reputation for being a force for good on the internet. people were like, can they do id? >> they're proud sourcing this. let me show the image of this 17-year-old we decided to blur out his face. this is the 17-year-old first identified i think in an reddit sub-thread and put on the "new york post" cover. do we have that image? we don't. >> there's a difference between detective work and vigilanteism. the detective work was really interesting. the reddit community was surprised and chagrinned an polite when the fbi photos came out and said, no more discussion
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or photos. >> i'm sure the 17-year-old was thrilled when it came out. >> when we talk about how many photos are out there, we talk about lack of privacy, the fact we're getting captured all the time, you think about it as between you and the state, law enforcement and in that case, important to solve a horrendous crime and in some cases, incursion of privacy. i never thought sitting there going through it, the vigilante potential that exists right now. there is a lot of vigilante justice increasingly on the internet. >> i think there is this misconception distributing surveillance and distributing the kind of tools that you need to investigate will make things fairer or more efficient when it comes to justice. this case kind of shows, really, it's not like that. they singled out tons of innocent people, a lot of racial profiling going on, every brown person with a backpack was
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circled and put on the front page. i think you have to question whether this is a better way or -- >> you seem more sanguine about crowd sourcing. >> like a human flesh search engine and can be terrible repercussion repercussions to people's lives but you wouldn't want to burn the village to save it, lots of images of finding new stars and new planets. you want to in cull kate new ways of behaving online. >> i think creating norms is a big part. one of the norms should be don't try to solve a crime on your own. >> what's fascinating to me as i've been watching over the last two or three days, two investigations happening in parallel, the official investigation and part of what we've been dealing with the line of work i'm currently in, mismatch of supply and demand for information and the actual investigation going on and then there's the parallel crowd sourced amateur investigation
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that's going on. it's very tempting to want to be part of that. when i was sitting there reading that thread, looking at those photos, i had this weird moment at the end of it, i got to the last photo, that's totally the dude, that's the guy. of course, it wasn't. like this hyper gonzo journalism, these people are becoming part of the story. in the end, it is a kind of journalism and i think it should be judged on that. as far as finding out facts, i don't think they did a very good job. >> we should judge those in the world of traditional media who chose to put those on the cover of their paper. >> thank you so much. >> when it came to gun law reform, we're told this time is different. turns out it was no different. the outcome was so predictable in washington political terms, you could have scripted it. we will talk to someone who does this sort of thing for a living. the mastermind behind the house of cards joins me next.
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one day after a watered down background gun check went down to defeat. pro-opponents said this is not over and want to make sure we have a different congress and ask for mothers to stop lawmakers at the grocery store and tell them, you lost my vote. astronaut kelly said what he
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thought. >> what a terrible day for our country. with 80 votes, we meet with a u.s. senator who says they agree with the policy. know it will save lives, can't vote for it and couldn't give us a reason why they couldn't. that is unacceptable. >> today, we woke up to this dark darkly "new york times" analysis gun control effort had no real chance despite pleas and presented with gloating in the light of senate minority mitch mcconnell's facebook page mocking the bill with a sad face. that was not the precise sadness. sandy hook parents were in the gallery hoping that would matter. wayne lapierre wasn't knowing it wouldn't. yesterday was about the hopefully temporary defeat of the gun legislation. the day felt bigger than that because it was an object lesson about what doesn't work in washington, who wins and who loses.
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we thought who do we want to talk to about what we just saw? maybe the guy who wrote this? >> we need to close the shipyard in your district. the brac hearing is up tomorrow and you have zero testimony to add. >> i can't do that. i spent months on that testimony. i lobbied the commission, my entire office. >> i'm sure you have done splendid work but it come to fruition. >> why? >> politics. >> it's 12,000 jobs. >> i know. it's a shame. >> joining me executive and producer of "house of cards" and screenwriter on "the eyes of march." great to have you here. you work in politics quite a bit and been writing about politics. what did you make of the gun vote yesterday? >> i think yesterday is a perfect example how truth can be far mortifying than fiction. we had an opportunity yesterday to do something special and
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unexpected. legislation has been pushed forward in the course of four months, which is light speed, in terms of washington, major legislation. and then you saw the nra spending millions of dollars, a half million dollars on wednesday alone influenced a lot of votes. you saw people voting largely on partisan terms and folks like max baucus who kind of turned his face -- his back on his own party. >> max baucus, what i think what people love about "house of cards," our staff is obsessed with it, by the way is the minute depiction of power. max baucus is just making a calculation he's up for re-election, he's in a red state. >> sure. that goes into play. you had a lot of -- you also had mccai mccain and toomey listening to
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the american public. 9 out of 10 people want this to happen. >> you sound so idealistic now. you've written such a cynical piece of work. the point is -- i've seen this in your work and the point is the way democracy actually works on capitol hill is not some sort of simple cause and effect mechanism between the will of the people and the things legislators do. >> certainly not. our show takes a dark look at politics, showing an extreme view how politics can work at its best and worst. >> vince underwood is not bound by ideologically and able to achieve progress because of that. >> what's interesting to me when i moved to washington and started covering capitol hill how surprising to me how common it was. i expected everyone to be true
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believers. most people were operators. >> ideologically can be quicksand. the republican party is going through re-branding because an ideologically that worked for two presidential races failed them in the third. john mccain's story of going from progressivism to mainstream, that narrative failed because it was too entrenched in far right wing ideologically. the survivors and people operate and get things done tend to be a little loser. >> max baucus, a good example. >> and it's an example of how it can be petty and how he held up daschle's confirmation for health and human services or the only westerner to vote against daschle in 1994 when he was running for democratic leader. that came down to petty rivalry and a grudge. there's only 100 people in the senate. those sort of personal politics can affect 300 million people. >> that's what i thought was
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interesting in the manchin and toomey, joe manchin did an admirable thing, he took a risk he wouldn't have to, the most cynical view of how he would operate in the senate and politics is heartbreaking and infuriating it did yesterday. manchin didn't do how you would script him to do in the most cynical version. >> certainly, the people were doing a form of calculucalculuss more valuable to me what the electorate wants now in april 2013 or the amount of money i can count on from the gun lobby or however many years i'm in political office. t a number of people made a determination money was more valuable to them politically. >> i think it's important for people to take away this idea we superimpose such an ideological frame on our politics and the closer you get to politics and see this in kevin spacey's
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character in "house of cards," the more it looks like power than ideologically. >> we have the merry tockcracy, play by the rules, do everything right and you will succeed and have the american dream we know is not the case. the other is individualism, don't play by the rules and don't be a subservient to any. they don't mesh. executive producer of house of cards, beau willimon. thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. all. about marriage. children. money. about tomorrow. here's to good decisions. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your family's future? we'll help you get there.
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could anything have prevented the mass siv explosion at a texas fertilizer plant? hard to say since the last inspection was 28 years ago. >> and this improvisational genius. oswald plays a man who filibusters a city council vote
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and makes his pitch for the forthcoming star wars episode 7 eventually linking the franchise with the avengers. eight glorious minutes of delightfully offered impr improvisational genius they have posted online. >> the gauntlet of effect grabs onto the sand and the feared bounty hunter pulls himself from the microsoft of the sand beast. >> this is exactly -- >> and we realize he survived his fall during the battle and java's pile of -- >> as entertainment weekly put it, in nerd terms, it is-like j.j. covered in chocolate syrup. >> and the most amazing thing is this graphic from "the new yorker" showing income
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inequality in new york city by subway stubs. they use census figures to plot the median income of residents living near it. the median highs are in manhattan and lower at my home borough brooklyn and the largest gap between the subway statios s and reaching highs of over $200,000 in lower manhattan to a low of $14,000 in the bronx. these maps show in clear visual terms the top pography of i inequality in the world finance capital and twitter fan, vicki, how cool is new zealand. it became the 13th country in the world to legalize same sex marriage and public lawmakers and spectators burst into sound with a traditional love song. ♪
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>> even harmonizing. it gets even better. here's a member of parliament addressing a something that's gone viral. >> one of the bills was this bill was the cause of our drought. this bill was the cause of our drought. if any of you follow low on my twitter account, you will see it was pouring with rain. we have the most enormous big day rainbow! >> here's that enormous gay rainbow he was speaking of. well done new zealand. you can see it on our website, "all in" i remember the day my doctor said i had diabetes.
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you okay? dad -- >> that was amateur video of an entire building effectively becoming a bomb. about an hour or so after we got off the air last night, the west fertilizer plant in west texas exploded. the blast killed as many as 15 people with three or four volunteer firefighters believed to be among the dead and injured some 167 others. these are just estimates.
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it sent a mushroom plume of smoke into the air and just about destroyed a four to five block radius around the company. this is a picture of the apartment building located 4 to 500 yards before the explosion and this is how it looked earlier today. as of right now, texas officials will not talk about what exactly may have caused the explosion but a spokesperson from texas emergency management said it had hydrous ammonia and ammonium nitrate on site. it turns out 66 years and one day ago, texas experienced a similar disaster involving the federalizer chemical ammonium nitrate and turned out to be the deadliest accident in american history. >> night and day for three horrible days, the inferno that almost blasted a texas city from the map rages uncontrollable and unchecked. explosion and fire create a holocaust that baffles description and blocks out the
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sun for miles around. >> an explosion on april 17th, 1947 at a texas city on the gulfcoast happened as fertilizer was being loaded onto a ship. the subsequent chain reaction of fires killed almost 600 people. ammonium nitrate can become a powerful explosive and what the bomber timothy mcveigh used to kill 168 people. there's no connection but the point is fertilizer is a dangerous substance. texas regulators knew they had 12,000 gallon tanks of the ammonia and due to a controlled fire from the fertilizer plant. the dallas news is reporting the plant told the environmental protection agency and local officials it did not present a risk of fire or explosion and worst case scenario would be a 10 minute release of ammonia gas that would kill or in injure no
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one. records from the occupational safety administration shows the last inspection of the west fertilizer plant happened in 1985, for a few violations osha considered serious, the company was find, wait for it. $30. 28 years seems like a very long time for osha inspections for a risky workplace. while the number of inspectors has grown under the obama administration, osha just has 2400 inspectors for 8 million work sites. roughly one inspector per 60,000 worke workers. we talked last night about f fatalities from terrorism and gun deaths and we didn't talk about workplace. 3,000 americans died from terror attacks and during that same
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time. 335,000 americans died from the hands of a gun and over 60,000 workplace deaths. you would think on the day after one workplace fired up an entire town, the man that works for president obama, the day he went before a senate committee, after a factory explosion not inspected for almost 30 years, perez would be asked about it and you would be wrong. during the entire hearing no one saw it relevant to raise a peep about west or osha. they did find time to ask about a favorite right wing bugaboo. total questions about osha, zero, total questions about the new black party panther voter intimidation case, one. >> and i will talk about one who
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let's bring in mike, staff writer and celeste, foreign policy analyst from the department of labor's occupational safety and health administration. great to have you both here. when you heard about this, mike and started looking through the osha records, i saw it from your reporting, were you surprised it had been so long since osha inspected the plant? >> no. literally the plant had not been inspected in my lifetime,
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literally not since 1985. there's not enough osha inspector inspectors for the country. there are so few in texas, it would take 98 years for them to inspect every place once. it didn't surprise me. typically there's only an inspector when a worker calls up and complains and typically only in a union workplace. >> it's a complaint and people come out and not like doors on hazardous work sites. >> occasionally, not that often. >> what is the standard. you would think a fertiliz fertilizer -- about 20 employees in this west fertilizer warehouse where this happened. what is this standard that would prompt a heightened level of scrutiny from osha or from any kind of federal regulatory body, looking into this? >> you're absolutely right. the materials that we believe were on that site are extremely caustic. can cause obviously catastrophic
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damage to both the plant and the community. osha does target workplaces that are particularly hazardous, but that's such a small fraction of the work that they do, and depending how this particular plant was categorized, how they described their industry, they may have been exempt from osha inspections. for many years, congress has put a rider on osha's preparations that prohibits them from doing inspections at small facilities with less than 10 employees and in particular industries designated to be low injury industries. what we know from illness and injury records, flips and trips and cuts are not predictive of what's going to happen in a facility like this, where you ha have, you know, releases of highly hazardous chemicals. so, really, a lot of this
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responsibility falls on congress, one, for not adequately funding osha, but, two, for puttin ting handcuffs the agency to decide where it needs to target its resources. >> how does osha think about risks? you would think again a fertilizer -- we know there are epa regulators in there, texas air quality regulators in there. the last time there was a real inspection, 2006. how does osha think about risk in the workplace? you know, a mine versus -- call center versus a fertilizer factory? >> you know -- celeste probably is better. >> go ahead, celeste. >> what i wanted to say was, when you have an agency that has such a huge mission, 9 million workplaces and so few inspectors, it's a real challenge to figure out where it's best sending those inspectors to spend their time.
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osha does have a number of emphasis programs particularly for those facilities that have highly hazardous chemicals. even that, they're only going to get to a few dozen of those plants. and so, chris, your question is, is an appropriate one but difficult to think about risk when you have such limited resources to get to. >> thinking in this comprehensive way about risk you would want to prevent something like this. mike, you've been reporting about this a lot. is this something that has gotten better or worse in the last five years? has it more-or-less stayed the same? >> well, you know, if you look over the long run, you look how difficult it is for osha to enact new safety rules, obama has not -- in his 4 1/2 years in office initiated and completed a newspaper safety rule on any matter. there has been in previous administrations. the average time it takes to
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initiate a rule is seven years. the obama administration is currently issuing new rul rules -- the reagan administration issued new rules four times the obama administration for workplace safety. it's gotten progressively worse the last 30 years. >> celeste. >> if i might put that in context. we have to think about what has gone in in washington d.c. in terms of real attacks on regulatory agencies. they're vilified, they're made to be responsible for the fall of our economy. that's not what happens. there is no evidence whatsoever to demonstrate that workplace safety regulations by osha make any impact on a business's ability. i would argue that a facility like this that blows up, not only do you have the devastation of people who've been killed, you have now a lost numbers of jobs and you have a community that's completely devastated by this disaster. >> yeah.
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this is a perfect example of -- i don't -- i cover public life for a living. i don't think very often who's regulating huge warehouses of nitrates that are sitting there and could blow up. that's someone's job, right? someone is out there doing this. one place is the chemical safety board. they do post disaster investigations. they try to create recommendations. here's a statistic to give you a sense, celeste, about the squeezing there is on regulatory bodies more fully. those gray bars are recorded incidents, right, chemical workplace incidents and those orange bars are investigations. what you see is a gap opening up between the two. does that track with what you have seen, celeste? >> absolutely. you talk about the chemical safety board, their budget is $10 million. $10 million. they try to respond to high consequence incidents. but we have about 200 of those in our country every year.